My intent in this section is to convey my participatory experience in the other dialogue groups, and for that purpose I must briefly mention some ongoing groups that have existed along the lines of Bohmian dialogue.

I was informed of dialogue meetings occurring on a sustained basis in California, Australia, Quebec, and most recently of a meeting that has been ongoing for three years in Amherst, Ma. The dialogue group in Lancaster, England (of which Cherith Adams writes in her master thesis "Who Am I ? A Study of the Impact of Long-term Participation in a Dialogue group in Members’ Belief in, or Sense of Individuality" (1995), addresses evidence of noticeable change in the self. I found her review of the psychological literature paralleled the psychological aspects of Bohmian dialogue. Regarding general responses to my queries of various groups, the problem common to all groups has been one of sustaining members. In his dissertation, Mario Cayer addresses the question of keeping dialogue alive, that the participants need to have an understanding about mindfulness. As I see it, mindfulness is be one of the beneficial results of persevering through the difficult phases of dialogue. Yet I find Cayer’s proposal (that of mindfulness) quite intriguing. Perhaps a consciously aware group would jell in a coherent manner, but as I recall, the value of any insight gained by the individual or group pertains to the prospect of reaching out to everyone. At this point, I do not see this happening without a large grant or other sponsorship, which well might jeopardize Bohm’s intent of beginning at a culture’s grass roots.

In England, Peter Garret has been working with a dialogue between prisoners and guards. He definitely has a captive audience. Addressing this project is beyond the scope of this report, but for those interested who are interested Garret’s address is listed in the bibliography.

In the spring of 1996 I began my internship in Hungary with The Club Of Budapest, founded by evolutionary and systems theorist Ervin Laszlo. Due to the Dalai Lama’s poor health, a scheduled conference was canceled and, at my request, I was released for ten days to participate in The Whole Question of Education Conference in Brockwood Park, England. I also attended two dialogue meetings in London. A year later I attended a conference in the English countryside concerning Bohm’s ideas, and was invited to participate in a dialogue meeting at the Quaker center near the street from Birkbeck College, University Of London.

Meeting One, London, 5 people

Discourse and dialogue fade in and out of each other like the conundrum of time and timelessness.

I mentioned the Socratic scholar Vlastos, who concerned himself with irony and mockery as a major part of the inquiry that occurred during ancient dialogues at the Acropolis and other places. One respondent mentioned that the dry sense of humor of the British could be construed as mockery. Throughout the meeting some people remained quiet and before we knew it nine o clock arrived and the meeting adjourned.

One example of a typical response was that "thinking and feeling are different aspects of the same coin."

We talked about many things, including the lack of emotion exhibited by the articulators (those who talk glibly), and people who feel that the non-verbal emotional response is closer to the spirit of dialogue. We met in a flat belonging to Felix Greene’s widow. (Greene wrote books about social concerns, including one I have read entitled The Enemy: What Every American Should Know about Imperialism..) The group had been meeting at this flat for three years. A man spoke about Sloss’s book on Krishnamurti’s private life. Someone remarked that Krishnamurti wore ninety dollar shoes. After the meeting I went with some of the dialogue participants for tea. Lila, a former art teacher at Brockwood, talked about her experience as a teacher, and she talked on the dialogue experience.

I felt much more at ease in the London group than in Eugene. Does my being at ease in the London group have to do with the difference of national character elucidated by Gregory Bateson and Filmer Northrop? If I remember correctly, the gist of Bateson’s study was that the British demanded a more socially oriented kind of participation which included a refined development of the art of conversation.

Meeting Two, London, 12 people

Mike High said the group was still talking "about" dialogue, but they were not actually engaging in one. It was interesting to observe the back-and-forth parleying between Don and Mike, two of the regular participants. One man asked me to speak. I said, "You’re putting me on the spot," Then I originated, "I know a way out of the impasse that this group is entrapped in." In retrospect it was a tactic on my part to relieve the tension of the moment. I really did not think that there was a simple way out of the apparent lack of coherence. Saral said that she had heard the tapes of Krishna’s statements as he was dying, and they indicated he went out in dismay. Mike mentioned that "he was Irish and liked to talk" and was carrying on because I was there. As was the case in every meeting I have participated in there were the usual phases of ambient noise, as well as what seems to be called silence that seems to phase in at the beginning, middle and the end of each meeting.

In this group it was interesting how people used what appeared to be journalistic skills to shift the content of the process of discourse when someone felt that the group had lingered long enough on a particular theme. When the group closed, one newcomer who hadn’t spoken made a very observant comment about what he saw going on, regarding as far as the point-counter point bandying among the participants.

One pattern I particularly noticed in this group was that several times when the group seemed to be stuck, one person would interject that the group had talked too long on a subject and it was time for us to move on. I said to myself, "Dialogue is an art form, and philosophers are artists in cry. Their tears are now."

Later, in an informal discussion, I found there was a sentiment among many participants that after three years the group needed to disband and regroup. Mark had told me the same thing in the personal interview I had with him just before I left the US. In Eugene he felt that everyone was too familiar and that the group as it was then composed would not go any further.

Meeting Three, June 11, 1997, approximately 18 people

We participated in what turned out to be a fascinating experience akin to a weaving in and out from discussion into dialogue and back

again. As usual, we began with this phenomena (for lack of a better word) of silence.

One woman said that she did not feel comfortable with the "we" word. For some reason she felt awful when people used this word. As you can imagine, this led to a parley on the various uses of "I," "you," "myself" "them," and "we." Someone vehemently said, "What is ‘I’ but an illusionary construct anyway?" I replied that Sir James Jeans defined science as "an earnest attempt to set in order the facts of experience in everyday living." I was told such was only one view of science, so I concurred. Someone talked about poetry, their role as an artist, the mode of composition, and the sensitivity that ensues. The talk was about William Heute’s speech on virtual reality -- a make-believe world. Many people felt comfortable with his approach when invoked as a heuristic device. (Gordon Pask, author of the article "A Conversational Theoretic Approach to Social Systems" in Sociocybernetics: An Actor-oriented Social Systems Approach (1978) & other books, defined heuristics as fuzzy logic).

E. Conclusion

My experiences in the dialogue groups described in this report varied considerably. Financial limitations as well as obligations of my graduate program influenced my involvement. Since I am by nature somewhat hermetic, I found that any consistent involvement in groups enhanced my development as a human being. One aspect of my changes occurred in that I developed listening skills which have profoundly affected my life. My experiences with community have revealed many aspects of the thought process and how it functions. The ambiguity which I often experienced was not an evasion of difficult challenges, but rather a kind of "dance at the edge" which moved me tantalizingly close to insights necessary for creativity. These dialogue communities illustrated for me one of David Bohm’s most moving statements, found his article "On Insight and its Significance for Science, Education, and Values" (1979):

Insight is an act, permeated by intense passion, that makes possible great clarity in the sense that it perceives and dissolves subtle but strong emotional, social, linguistic, and intellectual pressures tending to hold the mind in rigid grooves and fixed compartments, in which fundamental challenges are avoided. From this germ can unfold a further perception that includes new orders and forms of reason that are expressed in the medium of thought and language." (409)

Such insight is represented in a research paper entitled "A Systems Approach to Studies of Creativity and Consciousness" by Stanley Krippner and Allan Combs appearing in Systems Research and Behavioral Science (1998). They elaborate on the work of Mitroff and Kilman’s Methodological Approaches to the Social Sciences (1978). It is their contention that this approach (essentially an extension of Jungs’s view on personality types which he termed as intuition, feeling, sensation and feeling) is pertinent to studies of creative experience and human consciousness, and has implications for research in both fields. Krippner and Combs claim that

This approach is holistic and scientific, bringing creativity, consciousness studies and other complex phenomena into the main stream . . . . There are many scientific methods and many types of scientists. (90)

And quoting Senge et. al., "Mitrof and Lilman’s contribution, expanded here, has been to present in a systematic way a collaboration in what can be called a common loyalty to the truth. . ." (1994, 214).

Another example of the presence of different types of scientists is presented by J. D. Bernal in his book The Freedom of Necessity (1949). Bernal, who was a crystallographer, was a strong supporter of a socially responsible science. He was also instrumental, as the head of the Physics department at Birkbeck, in securing a job for David Bohm. Bernal proposed that the playwright George Bernard Shaw actually was a scientist. (e.g., Shaw’s imagination and rigor, which he represented in his plays, concerning the human predicament). Bernal also argued that Shaw’s skeptical inquiry, which he represented in his scathing social analysis of the social conventions of his time, was eventually responsible for the changing of these conventions.

Bohm was of the view that the best place to begin a dialogue experiment was at the grass roots. For those who are wondering if it is possible to launch such a group with little funding, I initiated this experiment on a shoestring with the spontaneous help of only a few people. I estimate my costs were approximately 400 dollars. Although there were no leaders, I must say in passing that the coordinators who took over calling around and making other necessary arrangements for the meeting place spent many hours addressing various assorted details, much more than the two hours of meetings every two weeks.

This study of psyches, where minds were engaged in communication through exploration into the systemic aspects of the undue use of thought (past participle), often revealed incoherence within and between their beings. It is also suggested how this process affected these selves, who -- by inquiring vis-a-vis insight, or proprioception (collective meditation) -- promised to lead to a coherent wholeness which respected the uniqueness of the individual’s role through the self reflective process of harmatia (fatal flaw) metanoia, and proprioception. I might add that these three terms share the common notion having to do with aim. What are they aiming at? Is the intent of these psyches to understand the whole? As Bohm pointed out in Unfolding Meaning (1985), the implication of the original meaning of metanoia (penance) meant a personal transformation without probable guilt. Harmatia (fatal flaw) originally meant "missing the mark", without the dual idea of right and wrong, and the consequential probable guilt that has fostered a travail of human suffering, contributing significantly to the fragmentation that prevails with humanity. Did this exploration of many minds cast in this bi-monthly dialogue setting contribute to at least a glimpse of unity? Did this probing of many minds "in the round" on the limitations of thought lead to the realization that unity is a multiplicity of views? Or that unity emanates from understanding through each individual’s transcendence, whatever it is?

In my view, it is too soon to definitively elaborate about the possibility of coherence in Bohmian dialogue. The common problem is one of bringing in sufficient numbers, and as I mentioned, Bohm suggested that the ideal is between 20-40 people. As I explained earlier, I suspect that 10-20 will be the norm unless there is a change in the present trend. Bohm had suggested 20-40 participants as the right number to create a micro-culture and to mimic a group mind. Indeed, if there is a trend towards an evolution of cooperation -- one which natural philosopher Jonas Salk alluded to in his work -- perhaps communications such as this essay will contribute towards encouraging more involvement.

With regards to a definition of consciousness, whose content is co-ordinating the procession of what ensues between the participants, no one seems to agree on what the term means. As far as I am concerned, Stanley Krippner’s definition is the closest to my own subjective experience. In his presentation "Towards a Science Of Consciousness," given at the 1998 Tucson III conference, Krippner defines consciousness as "a pattern of an organism’s perceptual, cognitive, and affective activities and/or experiences at any given moment in time" (5). I find inspiration in the latter part of his definition and I find there is significance to the definition that Bohm and Peat offer to in Science, Order and Creativity (1987) where consciousness was defined as "what everyone knew all together" (212). This definition is in accord with the experience of dialogue which I attempted to depict in this essay. As I stated above, scholars Ackoff, Schutz, Koestler and others use the model of "intersubjectivity," which could be construed to be a law of the whole inclusive of the variation of experience that ensues between realms of subjective, objective and beyond.

Dialogue groups in which I participated in Eugene, Ojai, (California); and London were not aiming for results or outcomes. As the proverb says, "the walnut ripens when it is ready." This experiment could be viewed as a heuristic device that is exploring and thereby learning (among other issues) the appropriate suitability for categories of new orders of thinking which ensue from an insight of undivided wholeness.

Ways to encourage more people to participate have been discussed by dialogue groups internationally. As I mentioned, Mario Cayer addresses this question in his dissertation and recently he received a grant to initiate the experiment "Insight, Meditation and Bohmian Dialogue." In a personal communication, Cayer told me he is assuming that approximately 25 people might participate in his experiment. Piet Hut, whom I heard speak at Tucson lll, is also doing a group meditation experiment that is similar to Cayer’s at Princeton’s Natural Science of Advanced Studies.

Many people whom I queried have assumed that dialogue is like a Quaker meeting, T-group training, deconstruction, Rodgerian encounter group, or therapy session. As I stated earlier, the experience does not exclude therapy or a definite form of spirituality, but these approaches are not the intent of dialogue. Inadvertently, individuals might find aspects of such methods that are meaningful, but the main aim of a Bohmian dialogue group is the exploration of "what takes place, as it comes up, in this circle" over a period of time.

Chris Argyris’s action research was mentioned by scholars Cayer, Tuling, and Adams, referred to earlier. Argyris has extended the inquiry of social psychologist Kurt Lewin, who developed a method of action research based on analysis, fact finding, evaluation, and a continual recursion of this process. As I see it, Bohmian dialogue groups have different boundaries than the methodology of action science, and there is a likely possibility that dialogue experiments could turn out to become one of the latest developments in the mathematical hermeneutic evolution of The Tree of Perennial Philosophy as illustrated in Figure 1.1, page 16 of mathematical physicist’s Ralph Abraham’s book Chaos, Gaia, Eros (1996 ).

Such a development would contribute to a resacrilization of science vis-a-vis wholeness. Is this indeterminate non-contingent approach of inquiry in Bohmian dialogue just a passing fancy? If not, what is there about Bohmian dialogue that needs further clarification? "My answer follows."

Theory often needs an incubation period in order to develop. These dialogue groups are not in any rush nor are they strongly swayed by results or outcomes. As Bohm has pointed out, evolution has a root meaning of unrolling. A nurturing approach to theoretical explorations exhibited by dialogue groups could eventually shed insight into an appropriate theory that in turn helps to clarify the limits of science and criteria such as Karl Popper’s notion of falsification which, it appears, is losing its strong hold in evolutionary epistemology.

In Wholeness and The Implicate Order (1981), Bohm states "to develop new insight into fragmentation and wholeness requires a creative work even more difficult than that needed to make fundamental new discoveries in science, or great and original works of art" (24). I see this approach to dialogue as an art. Although I consider my representation a first step into inquiries concerning the implications of consciousness and meaning, there were definite precedents set with this experience. The pattern of learning to work together revealed an enhanced listening of omniviews, which John Briggs and Frank McClusky articulate in their article "Ultimate Questioners The Search for ‘Omnivalent’ Meaning" in The Search For Meaning (1989). I suggest that further inquiry into this question of dialogue’s significance include delineations of suitable metaphors, analogies, similes etc. along the lines illustrated in William Empson’s Seven Types of Ambiguities (1953) and also mentioned by Briggs. Another aspect to dialogue as an art form is the questioning of assumptions through the medium of metaphysics, reminding us that in his last interview Bohm remarked that art and science would merge. Perhaps collaboration along lines of a new metaphysics like that of Skolimowski, Harman, Guba and others mentioned above and/or by collaborating with quantum theorists such as Hiley and colleagues Penrose, Hamerof et al. could lead to a new or improved science. My conjecture is that a dialogue format could be the catalyst which brings these various forms of art to a line of closure that contributes to such a science.

The philosopher Habermas, a pupil of Gadamer, says process is not an actual, realizable state of affairs, but an orientation for what is an ongoing effort. I would add that the aim of dialogue groups is an attentiveness to whatever comes up in the dialogue, and that includes the limitations of effort. My experience had a psychological dimension regarding consciousness, the subtle (spiritual) aspects of which revealed itself through the ongoing conversation between the individual and collective aspects of self. This unfolds in a way that glimpses the wholeness of life. David Bohm felt that each of us must discover for ourselves the meaning of wholeness, and I agree.

It appears that scientists have found ways to quantify complexity. I suggest that any researchers who initiate such measurements should be sensitive to dialogue’s potential, and let this deserving project develop. Speaking of complexity, Barbara Dossey in Holistic Nursing (1988) contends that the whole person is one who seeks the inward journey of understanding the complexity of life. I agree, and it seems that those who have partaken in dialogue have by definition given value, significance, and purpose to dialogue’s meaningfulness by asserting a trust in a greater whole. The ideals and aspirations of exploration are stated most appropriately by David Bohm in his book Wholeness and The Implicate Order (1980):

What I am proposing . . . is that man’s general way of thinking of the totality, i.e., his general world view, is crucial for overall order of the human mind itself. If he thinks of the totality as constituted of independent fragments, then that is how his mind will tend to operate, but if he can include everything coherently and harmoniously in an overall whole that is undivided, unbroken, and without border (for every border is a division or break) then his mind will tend to move in a similar way, and from this will flow an orderly action within the whole. Of course . . . our general world view is not the only factor that is important in this context. Attention must, indeed, be given to many other factors, such as emotions, physical activities, human relationships, social organizations, etc., but perhaps because we have at present no coherent world view, there is a widespread tendency to ignore the psychological and social importance of such questions altogether. My suggestion is that a proper world view, appropriate for its time, is generally one of the basic factors that is essential for harmony, in the individual and in society as a whole. (xi)

To sum up my experience with Bohmian dialogue as represented within the Oregon meetings and internationally, I believe there is a likely possibility that this experience in cultivating the art of talking can lead to a release from the undue use of thought into truly creative insights. In the Empire of Light: A History of Discovery in Science and Art (1997), Sidney Perkowitz writes:

Bohm and student Yakiv Aharonov derived a mathematical result about the behavior of electrons in magnetic fields. The result was thought to be unobservable, but like the wave function itself it has been experimentally detected showing that "unseen" quantum effects may have physical reality. (88)

My suspicion is that the proposal of David Bohm and his colleagues will emerge in a tangible way somewhat similar yet different to Sidney Perkowitz’s description.

F. End Notes

1. Definitions: "But I think the most fundamental things cannot be defined; we can unfold them, but we can’t define them," Bohm says in Unfolding Meaning: A Weekend of Dialogue with David Bohm, edited by Don Factor (1987. 104). [At the very beginning of this essay the sources of the definitions below are represented in the definition section by brackets.]

On Creativity . David Bohm. Ed. Lee Nichol (1998).

The Hidden Domain: Home of The Wave Function, Natures Creative Source. Norman Friedman (1997) Glossary (221-229).

On Dialogue . David Bohm. Ed. Lee Nichol (1996).

Dialogue -- A Proposal . David Bohm, Don Factor and Peter Garret (1991).

Transcript. David Bohm Seminars: Dec. 1989 . Friends of Dr. David Bohm: Index (160)

Science, Order, and Creativity . David Bohm and F. David Peat (1987).

Unfolding Meaning. David Bohm. Ed. Donald Factor (1985).

Wholeness and the Implicate Order . David Bohm. (1981).

2. Consciousness: See Science Order and Creativity, Bohm and Peat ( 1987. 212).

It is arguable that an emerging definition of consciousness be inclusive of the subjective (first person), cultural (second person) and collective/cosmic aspects (third person) meaning of consciousness. See "Conversations On Consciousness, Causation, and Evolution," Marilyn Schlitz in Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine 4.4, July 1998 : 84.

George Dyson in Darwin Among the Machines: The Evolution of Global Intelligence (1997) suggests that the physician Alfred Smee’s definition of consciousness has not yet been improved upon: "Alfred Smee was among the first to close the gap between neurology and mind. He was an English physician . . . . The power to distinguish between a thought and reality is called Consciousness, he wrote in his Principles of the Human Mind Deduced from Physical Laws published in 1849" (46).

3.Proprioception -- In Charles Olson’s Additional Prose: A Bibliography on America Proprioception & Other Notes & Essays, ed. George F. Butterick, Olson defines proprioception as "sensibility within the organism by movement of its own tissues" (17). Cf. the definition of "proprioceptive" in Webster’s Collegiate. p. 797: "Activated by, pert. or designating stimuli produced within the organism by movement in its own tissues, as in muscle sense (Ed. notes, 85). CF. Interoceptive . . . Inspection judgment judicium, dotha" (86).

"Inspectio" and " judicium" are Descartes’ terms from his Principles of Philosophy, used in Whitehead, Process and Reality (Cambridge, 1929), esp. p. 67. Inspectio amounts to immediate intuition; judicum "the faculty of judgment or logical analysis. "Dotha" is Plato’s (word) for’opinion’ or -- as in ‘dogma’ -- ’a judgment’’ (Olson has apparently misread (these Greek words), which Whitehead points out is the same as the Cartesian judicium (Olson 86)

While investigating the notion of proprioception in the article "The Adaptive Radiation of Proprioceptors" by W. Wales, from Sensory Ecology: Review and Perspectives, ed. M. A.. Ali (1977), I found something suggestive about the question of light in Wales’ illustration of three chairs in a circle representing the senses of proprioception, phonoreception, and other forms of mechanoreception. The boundaries are grey areas, which are graphically displayed diagonally. Of Fig. 1. Wales writes: "There are no distinct boundaries between proprioception, phonoception and other forms of mechanoreception. These senses are thus separated by a gray area" (411).

4. Smee’s definition of reality: "When an image is produced by an action upon the external senses, the actions on the organs of sense concur with the actions in the brain; and the image is then a Reality." See note 2.

5. Smee’s definition of thought: "When an image occurs to the mind without a corresponding simultaneous action of the body, it is called a Thought." See note 2.

6. Bohm makes the point is that we do not grasp that which is but we are that which is: Truth is coherent (1989. 205).

7. Dr. Bohm was interested particularly in the question of a coherent (hanging together) whole. Wholeness in my view is indefinable.

8. In his book the Presence of the Past: Morphic Resonance and the Habits of Nature (1988) Rupert Sheldrake defines M-Fields:

Morphic field: A field within and around a morphic unit which organizes its characteristic structure and pattern of activity. Morphic fields underlie the form and behaviour of holons or morphic units at all levels of complexity. The term morphic field includes morphogenetic, behavioural, social, cultural, and mental fields. Morphic fields are shaped and stabilized by morphic resonance from previous similar morphic units, which were under the influence of fields of the same kind. They consequently contain a kind of cumulative memory and tend to become increasingly habitual. (371)

9. Renee Weber and David Bohm talk about meaning as a form of being in chapter 30, "Meaning as Being in the implicate order philosophy of David Bohm: a conversation," of Quantum Implications: Essays in Honor of David Bohm, ed. Basil Hiley and F. David Peat.

Weber: Archibald Macleish defined poetry in that way. He says: ‘A poem should not mean but be.’ So the meaning is its being. To shift to another question: are time, history and development necessary for the evolution of form and consciousness? (447)

In the same source, chapter 29, "Reflectaphors: the (implicate) universe as a work of art," Briggs talks about poet Archibald MacLeish’s interpretation of metaphor:

Metaphor, however, it invites neither agreement nor disagreement, and despite its stipulative syntax, the sentence leaves the mind in a state more like that of hearing a question than understanding an assertion.
......................................................................
"Perhaps that is the metaphor’s point. Certainly it was MacLeish’s point. ‘A poem,’ he says at the end of Ars Poetica, ‘should not mean but be.’ (416)

(10) Emerson elaborates:

"outsideness." I -- Thou was popular in Europe in the 20’s. By the 1990’s seven decades of ban lifted and Russian scholars were free to investigate the fundamental sources for Bakhtin’s philosophy of "I-Thou-We." (225)

A. B. Demidov "The Foundations of a Philosophy of Communication and Dialogue," places Bakhtin’s thought in the context of I-Thou-We categories elaborated by Karl Jaspers, Martin Buber, Semyon Frank and the Austrian -- American sociologist of intersubjectivity Alfred Schutz. (226-227)

Emerson continues in the chapter "The Russians Reclaim Bakhtin":

Bakhtin -- a consummate and not too badly compromised survivor understood consciousness in an entirely different way. To such binary paradigms he would have responded that the world is simply not set up as a battleground between system and chaos. . . . and that Bakhtin rejected both poles: the first a "Hegelian" (and later a semiotic or a Freudian) extreme that assumes "everything means something and is going somewhere " : the second, a relativist (and later poststructuralist) view that assumes "nothing can mean anything and thus we cannot go anywhere." As an alternative to that grim fantastical choice, Bakhtin believed that the world, as we are thrust into it, is a world of potential form. But the realization of form is never instantaneous, it is not an "uncovering of some preexistent thing." Patches of form arise as the result of intelligence, work, and moral choice; to survive, they require a nurturing environment. It would seem that discrediting the absurd dichotomy between "system or nothing" which eliminates duration and devalues individual effort, was the single major task of Bakhtin’s long life. (71)

One of the principles of Bohmian dialogue -- taking into account many views -- is pointed out by Emerson in her chapter "One year later: Bakhtin’s Inonauka."

People of Culture are more than mere scholars or activists; they must be able to hold focus, but at the same time hold in suspension, many incompatible and unresolvable truth principles. (275)

Hubert Hermans and Harry Kempen in their comprehensive inquiry into the implications of dialogue and meaning in The Dialogical Self: Meaning as Movement (1993) also discuss Bakhtin’s work. W. Barnett Pearce’s article "Achieving Dialogue with ‘the other’ in the Postmodern World" (1993) has an array of views on the dialogic perspective which also addresses the intrinsic value of Bakhtin’s work.

(11) The poet Charles Olson defines myth in his Poetry and Truth as "what is said of what is said." (47)

The teeter I mentioned is literally the muthologos, which is the Greek word itself. Not myth. I mean, like, I can’t use mythology without finding it muthologos. And I can tell you what’s in this whole thing. Again I -- its a number of years since I first stumbled on that. And it was in pursuing my own interests in the other Greek of myself, beside Hesoid, Herodotus, who was known because of his His-tory. I don’t know how immediately and how early this was his name -- the Logographer -- in contrast to Herodotus who was to the Greeks the Muthologos. I hope you hear the switch. It’s a most exciting switch, to my mind, because actually what you call Heodotus’ stories are known to the Greeks as logoi. May I get that to you? Actually logos, in my mind right now, logic or lllll [deliberate studder] is lll, is like s st story, and is like, only story. And that when you have subjects like pslychology and pslopology, you’re actually only having the stories of -- and history is, like, so. At this point, happily, we can say myththology is stories of myths-which is the word ‘mouth.’ Muthos is mouth. [sputters] And indeed logos is simply words in the mouth. And in fact I can even better even be stiffer an etymologist and tell you that if you run the thing right to the back of the pan and scraped off all the scrambled eggs and there’s still rust on it and you can’t wash it, you’ll find that what you have to say muthologos is, is "what is said of what is said." (47)

In Muthologies (1978) Olson writes: "The Earth, the Image of the World, History or City, and The Spirit of the World and do those four things under an epigraph which would be: that which exists through itself is what is called meaning . . . ." (64). After reading these poems he mentions that, "It’s almost like an exegesis of text, if you’ll excuse me. As I said, I have arrived at a point where I really have no more than to feed on myself . . . ." (66). He says if one would talk a Causal Mythology, the simplicity of the principle "that which exists through itself is what is called meaning" -- will be that one produces a one . . . . (66-67)

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Contextual Essay ... by Nick Consoletti